Sep 19 2008
Writing Workshops
I got a great question about workshops, how to use them, what they are good for, that sort of thing. So let me expand here my opinions on workshops.
First off, I started (with Steve Fahnestalk) an amateur workshop, bootstrap workshop, in Moscow, Idaho in 1982 when I decided to get serious about my writing. We met every week and followed what we thought was Clarion style. Nina Kiriki Hoffman, Lori Anne White, Jon Gustafson, and others joined in, including M.J. Engh at times. Jane Fancher often sat and drew while listening, becoming a published novelist later on. But at the time we were all beginners pretty much.
In Eugene, Oregon, in 1987, Kris and I started another workshop with a ton of young professionals in it which a lot of editors attended during the years. One Tuesday night in 1991 we had over thirty people including ten professional writers, the editor of Pulphouse, F&SF, Amazing, and Writers of the Future all sitting at the huge table. It was also run Clarion style with some additional talking time about markets and such.
I also went to Clarion east in 1982 and taught at Clarion in 1992.
Kris and I now run professional level workshops here that serve to focus on an area of the business or craft for professional or near professional writers. And one big boot camp class called the Master Class that focuses on everything.
So clearly I believe that part of the learning a writer can get is from workshops of different sorts.
So to the question. How do you learn from a regular workshop?
First off a few huge warnings! Warning! Run away from a workshop that reads stories aloud. Run away from a workshop that holds you back and tells you that you work too hard or write too fast. Run away from a constant negative workshop that gets jealous of a writer’s success. Run away from a workshop that looks at works in progress in any fashion. No exceptions to these warnings. You are wasting your time and hurting yourself.
Workshops are group think, so if you go into a workshop hoping to “fix” a story, you are dead wrong and will only make the story worse by listening to the people attending no matter how experienced the people are. Listening to a group and then trying to fix a story edits out voice, edits out anything that makes the story unique, and basically is just plain silly. Writing by committee is never a good idea. Ever.
So why put a story through a workshop? My opinion is that you can get a number of good things by doing this.
1) Details (if you write them down and remember) about what you did correctly, what people liked, so you can continue to use that in the next stories. (But remember Asimov’s Rule: You hear nine good things and one bad thing, you only remember the bad thing. So write down the good stuff as well as the bad stuff.)
2) Details in your craft that you need to work on in the next story. (Your opening is slow. I couldn’t see your setting. There was no emotion. Your story really got going on page five (no editor would get there). And so on.) Understand you screwed up the story if everyone said the same thing, then work on it in the next story.
3) Audience for the story. You were attempting to write a horror story but everyone thought it cute and funny. Audience for a story is the best way to understand what you did right or wrong to use for the next story.
4) Information on the business. In amateur workshops, this is always suspect unless there is a source behind the information, and even then check it. Professional level workshops like the ones Kris and I teach here are like continuing education for any professional. You have to keep learning and working on your craft, but getting feedback and good business information is always hard. My rule is I always listen to people who are farther down the road than I am in the business and then I only take what I agree with and that sounds logical to me as a writer.
5) Networking. I can’t even begin to stress the value of gathering with other writers. You often pick up a detail that will make all the difference simply by having conversations with other writers at your own level. Learning in writing is not set in a school, but picked up one tiny detail after another, and workshops put you in a position to pick up that detail.
6) Reading and trying to figure out what in another writer’s story didn’t work for you, or did work for you, will be a very learning experience if you give it the time and actually look at the task as a learning experience instead of a chore.
7) Deadlines and motivation. Use a workshop as a deadline to finish a story.
So why do I teach workshops for younger professionals or near professionals? I learn as well all the time. Again, just being around other writers is a way to learn and I never stop learning. Ever.
So, in summary, workshops are great if you use them correctly and have the right workshop. They must be supportive and you must use the workshop to work on your craft and help your next story get better.
One hint: I used to write a story in a week and mail it. Then after I mailed it, I would turn it into my workshop. (I never once rewrote a story after it was rejected even though my workshop hated it, and I often sold a story that was beat up by my workshop.) Remember, workshops are to help you learn how to write the next story better.
And speaking of workshops and seminars, Kris and I are going back out for a short time this late fall and winter and doing the one day Kris and Dean shows in different places around the west. The day is sort of a summary of how to be a professional fiction writer, boiled down into a day of massive information and some fun as well. This came about after the one hour sessions we did at Worldcon that had a lot of people asking us afterward to do the one day event again. We are still setting them up, so watch this space for information.
Cheers, Dean
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As always, Dean, superlative commentary on a vexing subject. Thanks for fielding the question.
I had some poor crit group experiences that certainly turned me off to amateur crit grouping. Not that amateur critters aren’t nice people. It’s just that all the problems you named above, and several others, made the whole exercise seem kinda pointless to me.
I’m hoping to participate in at least one pro-run workshop in 2009. I will look at your schedule and pricing for the Oregon programs that you and Kris run. Sounds like a wonderful series of programs!
*grin*
Ok, so networking is vital and incredibly helpful. But run away fast from a workshop that looks at works in progress. So what about a workshop full of published novelists (and an editor) that also looks at works in progress?
(Sorry, couldn’t resist . . . :-P)
Great information, Dean! Thanks.
Deborah, if are you in a workshop that looks at works in progress like that, run away, doesn’t matter who is in it. Worst thing you can do. We never allow anything that is a work in progress here at our workshops. You either have it done or you don’t bring it here.
Why so firm on this? Because creativity is a personal thing, and you start allowing anyone into your work before the work is done and it becomes committee writing, the worst kind always, no matter how experienced the committee is.
Just think it through. And why would anyone allow anyone inside their work before it is done? That has always puzzled me a great deal, to be honest.
So run away.
Cheers
Dean
The one day workshops sound amazing. If it’s possible, I’d like to put in a vote for Arizona (near Phoenix :))
Once again thanks for the info.
Steve
Dean,
I won’t deny that you are probably correct that networking is necessary. However, I sometimes muse that James Tiptree Jr. was successful not only without attending workshops or conventions but largely BECAUSE “he” did not attend such things.
But maybe that’s because I so dislike the entire concept of networking. Is an editor REALLY more likely to publish my work because we shook hands at a convention?
JR, the answer is simply yes, in this modern world. Of course, the book has to be good, but when it comes down to two similar books, (written at similar craft levels) one from an author the editor knows is sane and one from an unknown author the editor has no clue about, the editor will lean toward the known author. Just safer and easier and makes much better business sense overall.
Do you have to meet editors to sell a book? Of course not. But does it help at times in some situations? Yes. Any way through the door is a good way in the door.
My first editor, Brian Thomsen just died two days ago. He was a great guy and a friend. I knew him as a friend because of conventions before I sold my first book to him. In fact, sitting in a bar talking with him one afternoon, I mentioned I had written this book for Bantam that they were considering. He asked about it and I told him and he liked the sounds of it. When it was bounced by Bantam, I fired it to him and he bought it. It got me in the door, that convention networking.
Damn, can’t believe he’s gone. Hasn’t sunk in.
Cheers
Dean
Dean,
I do appreciate your invariably patient and courteous replies to what must seem like dumb questions.
Thanks for all of your help.
Actually, I never think of questions as dumb, to be honest. I have a very, very clear memory of starting out, and there’s just no way to know some of this stuff unless you ask. I admire people who ask, to be honest.
Best
Dean
I’ll step out from behind my alias for this one.
Dean, what precisely is the definition of a First Reader, as opposed to just a workshop member or critique group “criiter”?
One of the big problems that turns me off to crit group is the fact that “critters” so often address their critique from the standpoint of genre or topic preferences, as opposed to merely offering suggestions on story mechanics or making other topic-neutral but story-specific commentary.
I’ve always longed to find and keep one or two people who know my tastes, as far as what I like to write go, and who won’t waste my time dinging a story on topic or genre, and can give valuable feedback on whether or not the story succeeds as intended; as opposed to a near miss.
Most of the encouraging pro editorial feedback I’ve gotten in the last couple of years tells me I am “near missing” all over the place, and sometimes I really REALLY wish I had that close associate or other person whose opinion I could trust, and who could give a story a look and tell me what they think, and why. And have it make sense from a pro writing perspective.
Example, “The beginning got me, but then you sort of sagged in the middle. Why does your main character have to spend page 17 going on and on about his childhood? It conflicts with his actual decision to murder the alien at the end.”
Versus, “Oh hi, I liked your story a lot, but why do you have to write about aliens? I like unicorns and elves, personally! If this was a story about unicorns and elves I think it might work better. Anyway, come see my story and let me know what you think! It’s called, ‘Elves Who Ride Unicorns’, v. 9, and I think I have it almost right! Thanks again!”
I wish my wife was First Reader material. Like it seems KKR has been for you, Dean. Alas, my wife is not into “skiffy” much and while she does enjoy some fiction, wouldn’t have the first clue about how to suggest mechanical improvement, dialogue improvement, etc.
How do you find that First Reader and foster the relationship?
Brad,
Great question and I started to answer it here then decided I should do it on a full blog post. So will do that shortly. And I will be doing another blog post about writing with others. Great questions.
Thanks, Dean
Dean,
A practical question that has started bothering me. How the heck do you keep up with where all your stories have been, where they are, where you plan to send them and that they aren’t going to the same markets since so many don’t want multiple subs and of course you don’t want to accidentally do a sim sub.
I’ve tried speadsheets but by the time you have a dozen stories and each has been out several times it starts getting hard to see what’s going on and a separate spreadsheet for each doesn’t show where the others are to be sure I don’t send two stories to the same market.
I keep thinking I must be missing a simple sollution to this, but nothing I’ve tried seems to quite work. I must be making it more complicated than it is.
Super! Looking forward to it, DWS!
The best feedback I get has been from people I have met at professional level workshops.
I know many writing ‘pairs’ where there is a mutual first reader bond. I haven’t been able to find that co-conspirator who is both first reader and partner-in-crime/kick-in-the-pants-motivator. I’ve looked for that elusive ‘first reader’ and I can honestly say I haven’t found one.
But what I do have is a good sized group of writers who’s opinions I value who range from at the same level(unpublished) to well above my level. Most will read if they have time available.
It’s funny, because I don’t really think I give good feedback, myself.
JR, how do you keep track when you have a lot of manuscripts in the mail? Good question.
I’ve seen many writers do it in many ways, but it seems over most to boil down to three check points, which is what I do. So let me outline what I do and you can develop a system of your own.
Warning! Do this on paper. I can’t tell you how many writers I talk to who lost all their records of submissions in a computer crash. Do this on paper because it must be set up to last for decades. You know, six computer systems down the road. Paper.
1) Track the submission under the story name. I have a separate sheet of paper for each story with a chronological listing of where the manuscript has been and where it is at. I usually keep this taped to the inside front of a file with the rejections on that story and with a hard copy of the story itself.
2) Track the submission by magazine. I have one page per magazine showing me which stories have been there and what dates and what is the response from the editor. That way if I do to send a story to the magazine, I can flip to one page and see what other stories are there and when and I have a double check system to keep me from sending the same story to the same editor twice. I keep these sheets of paper in a notebook on my desk alphabetical by title of magazine. One each sheet I put general guidelines of the magazine, editor name, and pay range. I also have the magazine address, so this is the page I get my mailing information. (In my computer I keep a standard letter to this editor, so I can see what I wrote last time and just update the cover letter for the new story.)
3) Just keep a general list of stories in chronological order that are out. I keep this list on the wall in my office. In my old apartment, I kept it on my fridge. I would cross off the story that came back and then add it again on the bottom of the list. This works as a handy way of seeing if a story is taking longer coming back. When you have fifty stories crossed out below a story, you know it’s been out there for a while.
This is the way I do it. A three check system. On paper.
Easy to keep and easy to maintain.
Cheers
Dean
I realized recently that I had sent out some of my writng but couldn’t remember where I had sent it and, worse, which essay.
What you say make sense and I will follow it.
Just wanted you to know how valuable your information is to (especially in my case) novice writers.
Thanks.
Oh, Dean. You don’t appreciate my ability to lose pieces of paper and notebooks.
At least I can’t lose my desktop and I can (and do) back it up nightly. I mean my stories and novels are on my desktop. I do backups. EVERYONE should do backups. Off premises so that if you have a fire (you do realize your notebook could burn or be vandalized) it’s all still safe.
I use a paid online backup service. However, I am SO paranoid on the subject I have actually considered using two. I decided that WAS beng paranoid though. LOL
However, your method makes perfect sense (even if I do it on my computer lol) so I will adopt it. I’m trying to get up to the numbers of short stories you talk about in the race, although I still have a way to go. I am convinced I would never know where anything is or has been if I don’t improve on my record keeping. So thanks again.
Yup, had a house fire, lost everything, so I do know about backing up things.
But the issue with records like this is simply think 25 years down the road. In 1982, no computer, I started this system. Luckily, I had a copy of the paper (copy machine) master list with photos of my office in my glove box of my car in 1985 when my house burnt down. I lost the stories, but I ended up having records of where I had sent them.
So today, 9 different computer systems down the road since those days of typewriters, I still can tell you where every story of mine has been on my master list.
So computers are great if you back them up, but you had better be able to keep changing the file from system to system to system for the next 25 years of computer upgrades. Paper, notebook, much easier.
Cheers
Dean